Episode 2.7 - Anthony R. Green
Episode 7 features Anthony R. Green, a composer, performer, social justice artist, and Associate Artistic Director for Castle of our Skins. We talk with Green about his musical journey, classism and commodification in music today, and his current work.
To learn more about Anthony and all recommended groups, composers, and resources, check out the links below!
Anthony’s article - “What the Optics of New Music Say to Black Composers”
The Coalition for African Americans in the Performing Arts (CAAPA)
African American Composers Initiative (AACI)
perfocraZe International Artist Residency- [pIAR]
Composers to check out!
Full Transcript
Carrie Blosser 0:03
Welcome to Diversify the Stand. Together we build a community to listen and learn from the stories and experiences of passionate musicians. I'm Carrie Blosser
Ashley Killam 0:12
And I'm Ashley Killam. In our second season, we talk with musicians, performers, educators, historians, and entrepreneurs to expand how we think of the music we perform and follow non-traditional career paths. Carrie and I were both fangirling the entirety of Episode Seven. We had the honor of talking with Dr. Anthony R Green: composer, performer, social justice artist, and Associate Artistic Director for Castle of our Skins. Dr. Greene's projects have been presented in over 25 countries, and behind all of his endeavors are the ideals of equality and freedom. Dr. Green is so humble, kind, and knowledgeable about so many topics, and we are incredibly excited to talk about a few of his stories and projects today. Welcome to our show. We're so excited to have you. And we'd love to start just hearing a little bit about how you got started in music.
Anthony R. Green 1:05
Definitely. So thank you so much for having me. And I basically got started in music when I was five years old. I was in kindergarten and my kindergarten teacher would play some stuff on the old piano in the corner. And I was a really curious little boy. So I watched his hands and I heard the music, and I tried to play exactly what he played after he played it. And I did figure it out, and was really curious about learning how to play more difficult stuff on the piano. My mom also took me to church every Sunday, where I was exposed to really wonderful musicians, and extremely important and soul-moving music. So that's basically where I started to play piano by ear really, in kindergarten and at church. And eventually, my kindergarten teacher told my mom that I have a gift that should be developed. So my mom got me a keyboard, and eventually got me piano lessons. I started lessons when I was around 10 years old. And then got a piano and the rest is history, really.
Carrie Blosser 2:31
I love that. I think it's always so great when we have, like, I feel like educators, especially as we're younger really can be that, like, kind of let that spark and advocate to communicate with, you know, parental figures to, like, hey, maybe, if you can, this would be a great thing.
Anthony R. Green 2:46
Yeah, definitely, definitely. And I think educators who are listening to this who have students with certain abilities should definitely tell their parents about those abilities because you just never know what will happen.
Carrie Blosser 3:02
Would you talk a little bit about how you started moving from piano into composition? Was that kind of an easy transition, because you had started kind of learning by ear at first and then going into lessons?
Anthony R. Green 3:14
Definitely. So as a child, I was rather creative. And I was much more interested in making things rather than learning about things or reading fiction, for instance, I did not read most of the books that many children read. And while people were reading things like The Hobbit and Trixie Belden mysteries, I was reading klutz books, and learning magic and bookbinding and macrame, I took clay classes at Rhode Island School of Design, I was really into origami and knitting and crocheting. So I was constantly making things. And I think my interest and, I guess, natural ability in music, combined with my penchant for creation, really lent itself well for me to become a composer. So I would improvise and compose little things when I was a child. But I didn't know how to read music because I played piano by ear. And when I started taking lessons, that's when my first main piano teacher really taught me how to read music, taught me music theory, and that's when I started notating things a little bit. But it wasn't until my sophomore year of my undergrad at Boston University, where I officially made the switch from a piano major to a composition major and started to officially study composition.
Carrie Blosser 4:51
Awesome. That's great. In the music that you write, we had talked before and you mentioned—we talked about social justice and how you incorporate that into your music, and we'd love to share that with our audience. So if you would talk about that a little bit.
Anthony R. Green 5:04
Definitely. So it's no secret that I am a Black person. And being Black is something that you cannot really hide. There are, of course, people who can pass, I guess, as people who aren’t Black, and I am not one of them. And this experience, growing up Black in the United States, is quite a unique experience. And it manifests itself in different ways depending on who you are, where you lived, where you grew up in the country, whether or not you moved out of the country or moved throughout the country. So the Black experience, for instance, in Providence, Rhode Island, where I grew up, is much different than the Black experience in certain states of the South, for instance. So while I was growing up, even though I didn't experience much obvious racisms, I definitely had moments where I felt uncomfortable and didn't really know why until I started to examine those moments in a later part of my life. For instance, I was told by somebody that because I played piano, especially classical piano, that I'm a “good example.” And whenever I look back on the person who said that, I'm pretty sure that person meant to say that I was a good example of my race, you know, I was one of the “better ones.” And this person was a friend, you know, this person was not somebody who I would consider evil. But this is the type of— these are the types of comments that end up just being said because of systemic racism and the way that the United States has unfolded throughout history. So in my life, I've definitely felt a certain type of way about people who are oppressed versus the oppressors. And it's really difficult for me to keep quiet. But it's also difficult for me sometimes to speak up in a way that I really want to speak up. Because I, especially growing up, I was afraid of professional backlash. And within the past eight years, I have been a part, and a Co-founder of an organization called Castle of our Skins, which is dedicated to celebrating Black artistry through music. And through Castle of our Skins, I've done quite a bit of research on Black history, as well as general forms of otherism, especially in classical music. And I remember coming across this quote that basically said, “You are privileged if you have the ability to speak up against injustice without being afraid of professional backlash.” And this quote really applies itself to so many different people in so many different situations. So over the years, that concept, even though I couldn’t really name it fully within myself, it really started to bubble within me. As a sophomore at Boston University during my undergrad, I remember coming across this article about unreported death in the war in Iraq, and how that number was most likely significantly much more than what was reported in the regular media. And when I came across this at the time, I was young, I was naive, so I was completely in shock. And the only real way that I knew that I wanted to share that with people was by writing a piece of music with this information contained in the music. So this was my first real social justice piece. And it happened really quite organically, even though at that time as a sophomore, I wasn't gung ho about advertising social justice as part of my practice. That didn't really happen until the year 2017, which was four years after I started Castle of our Skins. So it took me four years after saying, hey, I'm part of this organization that celebrates Black artistry through music, it took still another four years for me to say social justice is really a big part of my practice. And now I really don't care who excludes me, because I'm putting that as part of my professional identity. So I imagine there would be quite a bit more artists who want to speak up about social justice, but are afraid to do so. I, for some reason or another, lost the majority of that fear and decided to embrace that in 2017. And I'm really glad because it's gotten me where I am today.
Ashley Killam 10:29
I find it very interesting, especially this past year, with the, like, reckoning that's been happening with a lot of people, it's, like, to me just, like, doing a lot of research on composers and, like, reaching out to a lot of composers this year, it's interesting how few composers really make social justice as, like, a primary portion of what they do. But how kind of on the other hand, there are, you know, people looking into commissioning that assume, oh, because you are a Black composer, I want you to write me a piece about your experience. And not everyone is that way. And it's very interesting to see the other side and how just, I mean, thoughtless people can be. Every person and every composer, their experience is different. And what they want to write about is different, and how there are just people not considerate of that.
Anthony R. Green 11:23
Exactly, exactly. And I'm not sure if we will touch upon this later in our interview, but over the past year I've been doing, I don't want to say necessarily a self study, but I enrolled in an underground study group that takes a look at various different aspects of art, and various different aspects of life, and one aspect of life that we've been examining is class. And in our examination of class, we've taken a look at how certain elements of life and experience can be commodified, basically. So I definitely attribute much of what's going on in terms of what you were just talking about—reaching out to Black composers, queer composers, non-binary composers, trans composers, Asian American composers, Indigenous composers, and saying “I want you to write a piece about your oppression.” That's just a form of commodification, right. And at the same time, when these organizations do such things, they check off a DEI box. And that opens them up to getting grants from other organizations. So it's never about actual work. It's just about money.
Ashley Killam 12:47
Exactly. It's so infuriating.
Anthony R. Green 12:51
And transparent.
Carrie Blosser 12:53
I mean, like, it's just composer stereotyping, right? And it's just emotional tax on composers just because of experience. Like, that's not what you get to pay—Like, that's not what you're paying for. And that's not what you're applying for grants for.
Anthony R. Green 13:03
Exactly.
Carrie Blosser 13:04
Like, do you love their music? Great, let's commission them. Let's learn about them. Let's make sure that we are supporting them as artists and, you know, I’m fired up. It's, like, 8 a.m. here, my neighbors are gonna be—
Ashley Killam 13:18
The following clip is the entire first movement of Anthony R Green’s “Through American Time” for bassoon and piano.
Would you take us through some of your reflections on this self study and that you've realized the past year, year and a half?
Anthony R. Green 14:47
Gladly. So I wrote something that I would like to read. And it's a little, I don't want to say harsh, but it's definitely a part of what I've been observing in the music world as it relates to class. And I would like to share that. So let's just take a look at two of the biggest sources of grants for composers today. And those two grants are the grants from New Music USA, and the grants from the Chamber Music America. So from 2017 to 2020, in this order, the total amount of money for these grants awarded to composers was $2,108,120 bucks for New Music USA. And that looks like $546,000 in 2017, then $530,000 in 2018, $529,420 bucks in 2019, and $502,700 bucks in 2020. So you'll notice that money gets smaller from 2017 to 2020. Even though I don't have hard evidence, I can imagine the amount of people applying probably increased between 2017 and 2020. The same trend happens with Chamber Music America. So in 2017, the total amount of prizes for the classical commissioning program was $231,550 bucks, then in 2018 is $198,450 bucks. And then it does go up, 2019 is $209,100 bucks, and 2020 was $260,600 bucks. But I do want to stress that the jazz, the jazz analog to this grant always gets about two times more total prize money than the classical commissioning program gives away. The grand total from the Chamber Music America grants and the New Music USA grants equals about $3,007,820 bucks between 2017 and 2020, right? So now if you just do a very simple search, very simple search of the net worth of three very big name living composers, I'm not going to name who they are, but I bet you can guess, just do a very simple search of their net worth. And then you have a combined net worth of approximately $225 million. So the above four years of funding for both New Music USA and Chamber Music America awards represents less than 1.4% of the total net worth of these three big name living composers who are United States citizens. So these are some of the things that examining class and art in this underground program have led me to do, I've written so much more, actually, but I realized what I wrote could probably take up about an hour, so I'm not going to go through it. But if you start there as a foundation, then your line of inquiry can get deeper and deeper. And you'll start to realize some really awkward things about the way money works within classical music, which in itself is not a field that has a lot of money to begin with. But you also start to realize that it has much more money than we would think it has. And that money could easily be better distributed and better circulated if it weren't for certain opportunistic and classist aspects of some of the people who are a part of this world.
Carrie Blosser 19:12
I think those numbers are pretty eye opening.
Anthony R. Green 19:17
Yeah, it's kind of crazy, right?
Carrie Blosser 19:19
Yep. Yes, it is. On that note about money and how the classical world works, hopefully not too jaded in our response to how the world works and money in the classical world, for aspiring musicians and composers and creators, you've done so many different things between composition and performing and starting Castle of our Skins. What advice would you give for the world?
Anthony R. Green 19:44
Yes, I think my biggest piece of advice for young musicians, composers, theorists, anybody within this field who wants to start something or who wants to just improve their practice, improve their life. My biggest advice would be to not do it alone. As history unfolds and as time progresses, the amount of music majors increases exponentially. And knowing just the sheer number of people who are graduating with degrees in music, who want to pursue a very serious career in music, your best bet is to just not say I want to do this alone, your best bet is to find people who are as serious as you, who you work very well with, and who you can grow with, you can exchange ideas with, these are the people who are going to create a synergy that you cannot name, that you cannot predict. And those are the people that are going to help you create a beautiful career, because you all will have each other's self-interest in mind. And depending on how you work and what your project is, you're also going to have the interest of the greater music world in mind. So working together will just help you not only help yourself, but help your friends, your collaborators, and help the greater music world. So what could be better than a triple win?
Carrie Blosser 21:34
I think that's super advice. And I'm glad that I found Ashley through volunteering in another group. So, and we started Diversify the Stand together.
Anthony R. Green 21:41
Nice. That's an example. Perfect example.
Carrie Blosser 21:46
It's always easier with a team, too.
Anthony R. Green 21:48
Definitely, definitely.
Ashley Killam 21:50
Do you have any exciting projects coming up? I know you do. And I'm so excited to hear about all of the things!
Anthony R. Green 21:59
Yes, definitely. So one very exciting project that's coming up, so for all of you listeners, right now it's June, June 20th. And in seven days, I will get on a plane and head to Ghana, where I will spend a month at an artist residency in Kumasi. And this artist residency is the Performance International Arts Residency, or PR. And it's run by a fantastic performance artist named crazinisT artisT, with the capital T's at the end of crazy nice and artist. And their name is Va-Bene Elikem Fiatsi. And they have experience in Brazil, in Berlin, as well as tons of experience in Ghana. They also fight very hard for queer rights and trans rights within Ghana. So if you go to their Instagram page, you'll see quite a bit of literature, videos, both didactic and artistic, that really express this powerful message in support of the LGBTQ community in Ghana. So during this residency, I will be working on a performance. And this performance will be recorded, and it will be part of the Tune In Festival from UCLA from the Center of Artistic Performance at UCLA. And this Tune In Festival will include some wonderful artists. And at the moment, I'm not 100% sure of who those artists are, because I don't know right now who signed a contract and made the agreement. But it will be the fall when this particular podcast comes out, so just Google Tune In or click the link that will be provided, and you'll find a way to view my performance as well as the performances from the other artists of the Tune In Festival. So I'm really excited about that. And then I'm also excited to start a relationship with an organization called Ghetto Classics in Kenya, they’re based in Nairobi. And the organization was created to teach orchestral instruments, performance, to children who primarily grow up within the slums of Nairobi. And so for Ghetto Classics, I'll be working with some of the students on various composition techniques, and then I'll be composing a piece for them all to perform. And that will happen at the end of January 2022. So I'm really excited for these things. And I am also excited about a large piano sonata that I'm working on for the fantastic pianist Jason Harding. And he commissioned me to write a piece that is loosely in response to the 100th anniversary of Charles Ives’ Concord Sonata. And for this sonata, I'm using James Baldwin as a foundation, not only his life and his text, his words, his writings, but also his family and his travels, and other elements related to his life. So I'm writing a massive piano sonata, around 40 or 45 minutes, called the Baldwin Sonata. And that will also get its premiere in the fall.
Carrie Blosser 26:07
You have a lot of really awesome projects coming up in the next year.
Anthony R. Green 26:12
Yes, and that's only three of them.
Carrie Blosser 26:14
I know. You said you have a couple other small things here and there, but, so we so appreciate that you made time to talk with us today, for sure. Thank you.
Anthony R. Green 26:22
It’s really my pleasure. Thank you so much.
Ashley Killam 26:26
We are wondering, and we ask everyone, what's on your music stand this week, and how are you diversifying your stand?
Anthony R. Green 26:32
So with Castle of our Skins, one of my tasks is to run the BIBA blog, which is Beauty in Black Artistry. And as today is Father's Day, I decided to write a post about two wonderful Black composers whose children were also composers. And one composer I wrote about is Mzilikazi Khumalo, whose son, Andile Kumalo is a fantastic composer. But I also wrote about Samuel Coleridge-Taylor, whose daughter, Avril Coleridge-Taylor, was also a composer. And unfortunately, if you do a search for Avril Coleridge-Taylor on YouTube, you won't find any of her music anywhere. So I found a snippet of her Nocturne for piano. And I recorded the snippet that I found and uploaded it to YouTube and included it in the BIBA Blog, so on my music stand is a snippet of Nocturne by Avril Coleridge-Taylor. Also, I recently commissioned a fantastic composer named Forbes Graham, who wrote me a piece for piano and electronics, which is really difficult, and I'm super looking forward to learning it, and recording it, and performing it. So that is also on my music stand.
Carrie Blosser 28:00
That is super. Links to Anthony's website, plus the groups, projects they're a part of are listed in our podcast description. Thank you again, Anthony, so much for joining us. And we cannot wait to share this episode with our listeners and to listen to all of your pieces that are coming out this year.
Anthony R. Green 28:16
Thank you so much for having me. And best of luck with everything.
Ashley Killam 28:22
Thank you for listening to Diversify the Stand. I'm Ashley.
Carrie Blosser 28:25
And I'm Carrie. If you'd like to support us and our projects, find us on social media and visit our website. We now have a store where you can pick up some Diversify the Stand gear.
Ashley Killam 28:35
And as always, a huge thank you to Trevor Weston and Whitney George for allowing us to use their compositions in our podcast. The musical introduction is Trevor's trumpet duet “Fanfare for Changes,” and the ending music is Whitney's “Incantations” for trumpet and piano. Both composers websites are listed in the podcast description.
Carrie Blosser 28:53
Until next week, what's on your stand?