Episode 2.10 - Ashleigh Gordon
Episode 10 features Ashleigh Gordon, violist, educator, activist, and co-founder and Artistic and Executive Director of Castle of Our Skins. We talk with Ashleigh about Castle of Our Skins, tokenism, authenticity, intentionality, and some really exciting projects coming up. Transcripts to all podcast episodes are created by Hollyn Slykhuis and are listed below!
To learn more about Ashleigh and all recommended groups and resources, check out the links below!
Dr. Louise Toppin: The Daymus
African Diaspora Music Project (Dr. Louise Toppin)
Challenge the Stats in Atlanta
Full Transcript
Carrie Blosser 0:03
Welcome to Diversify the Stand. Together we build a community to listen and learn from the stories and experiences of passionate musicians. I'm Carrie Blosser.
Ashley Killam 0:12
And I'm Ashley Killam. In our second season, we talk with musicians, performers, educators, historians, and entrepreneurs to expand how we think of the music we perform and follow non-traditional career paths. In Episode 10, we're joined by our Assistant Production Manager, Hollyn Slykhuis, as we interview Ashleigh Gordon, the Co-founder and Artistic and Executive Director and violist of Castle of our Skins. She is an educator, performer, activist, and entrepreneur giving presentations on a variety of topics across the world. We are beyond excited to share this interview and are incredibly grateful for the time she gave to speak with us today.
Carrie Blosser 0:51
Yeah, thank you again for joining us.
Ashleigh Gordon 0:52
Yeah, my pleasure. I'm excited to be here.
Carrie Blosser 0:54
We wanted to start off with asking you how you got started in music.
Ashleigh Gordon 0:58
Yeah, I am the youngest of three kids. And my older brother and older sister had played piano. And the natural progression was that I would play piano, I actually hate piano and begrudgingly took lessons. But for some reason, at an early age, I really wanted to play violin. I can't remember how I became attracted to violin—if I if I saw it, if I heard it, or something like that, but I knew from a young age that that was the instrument that I wanted. I remember getting as a kid, a plastic guitar, like it was a white guitar and it had pink buttons and you could you know, push buttons and they light up. There was probably taller than I was, but I would always hold it on my shoulder like it was a violin. I started in public school on violin, and switched to the amazing instrument of viola, which I now play in college, so I say that the age of reason and wisdom happened for me in college when I found the actual instrument that I wanted, which is viola, and have been doing that ever since.
Hollyn Slykhuis 2:09
Then we wanted to ask you with your work with Longy, which is how I know you, and then also Castle of Our Skins, and the other courses you teach and the advocacy you do, can you talk about how you avoid tokenism in all of that work?
Ashleigh Gordon 2:23
Yes, great question. I think a lot of that has to do with intentionality and authenticity. I think with trying to do anything that does not stem from those two places will be work, will be short-lived, and have conflicting outcomes that they don't come from the same place. So really having lots of reflection and confidence in what you're doing, having a strong backbone in what you're doing so that there is sort of an unwaveringness about why and how you're doing the things that you're doing. So you referenced Castle of Our Skins, classes at Longy, which are Composers of the African Diaspora and Co-faculty advising a spirituals ensemble, advocacy as it relates in my work around artistic programming, around diversifying the music stand, that all stems from the same root. And that root is really built in an authentic and intentional desire to make sure that for me, people are curious, people are inquisitive in ways that are empathetic and then are inquisitive in ways that are going to amplify our collective humanity if that makes sense, if that isn't too broad for our conversation, so it all comes from the same places is basically what I've tried to say.
Ashley Killam 4:04
I love that. And it's so true, it is just so much self-reflection, making sure we aren't coming at it from the just, like, the performative angle of, you know, I'm doing it because it's cool, because it's the buzzword right now. Something I know I've been asked a lot in a lot of, like, the presentations I give are from an early career educators and want to be conductors that, you know, are people that have lived in a town that's like 99% white for their entire life. What advice do you have for people that maybe have been in that culture that haven't experienced anything else? How do they—what do you recommend to take the steps in starting all of this work and in starting sustainable inclusion and not just this performative work of checking off boxes and trying to tick all the marks of this tokenism.
Ashleigh Gordon 5:01
Yeah, it very much does, and I think that's a great follow-up question because it's very much related to being curious, wanting to know and wanting to understand. I remember since you had referenced culture, our conversation in our class Composers of the African Diaspora where we talked about culture, and culture being literally the general operating system of everything for you. So your perspective, your view of religion, how you literally see the world how you experience things, it is literally the framework by which everything operates, and the framework that you can consciously and tangibly understand and recognize and speak about, and the things that you cannot consciously understand and speak about, because it's a generational sort of understanding that has been passed down. So to some extent, I would say have a culture shock, and literally experience something that is not part of your normative, that is similar to traveling. I think that's a great way, right, and traveling and being able to understand the subtle nuances that extend beyond your perspective. And you can travel through film, you can travel through art and music, you can travel through literature, you can travel through literally having a conversation with someone. So if you are in that community, where it's quite insular, it's quite homogeneous, there are other ways that you can engage, you can travel through watching a different media source, for instance, right, and understanding a different perspective. And I think with that kind of travel, to do that with as much judgment-free-ness as possible, in this sense that it is a bit of a open-minded experiment, because again, that sense of curiosity is insatiable, it is tangible. That is, what literally will keep you engaged, keep you—broaden your perspectives, it will keep you alive, literally, with with thinking about nature, for instance. Nature is an organism that grows and morphs and changes. We are certainly an extension and part of nature, we are interdependent in nature, and also need to grow, adapt, change, be flexible. So it, I think it's a very natural part of our life, very natural process, to be able to grow and to change and to adapt, as difficult and daunting and scary as that seems for some people, right? It is such a natural part of how we operate as homo sapiens, to grow and to adapt to change. And if we embrace that, I think we would have far greater empathy in this world.
Ashley Killam 8:13
Exactly. And something you mentioned and an organization that I know is near and dear to you, and something that everyone should take some time and learn about and grow from is Castle of our Skins. And we'd love to hear a little more about how that began and how that all came to be.
Ashleigh Gordon 8:31
Sure. Well, I know on your podcast, you talked to Anthony R. Green, composer, social justice advocate. He is Co-founder, with myself, with Castle of our Skins, and a dear friend and a dear colleague whom I met during my master's at the New England Conservatory of Music. We met and performed his work, we collaborated, worked together before there was such a thing as a Black Student Union and wanted to, when we graduated, have an opportunity to still support each other's work and stay connected despite always having lived in different geographies and different time zones even to this day. We found a, sort of, it was dormant, I would say, interest or curiosity in African diaspora composers, and when I say African diaspora, thinking of the Middle Passage dispersal. So diaspora being two words that are combined: “seed” which is “spora” and “dia” which is “across” so “seed” being Africa and the dispersal or the spread across geography and time. So we have what was a dormant at the time interest in learning of other Black performers, creatives, composers, musicians etc. And I say dormant because we hadn't been even exposed to the thought during our multiple degrees, during our multiple studies, and decades at that point of music education, but had a understanding, and curiosity that perhaps there are more than just you and I. And of course, when you do any kind of even just a basic Google search, names start coming up. When you go into libraries, books start appearing, right. And when you open those books, and do those Google searches, other organizations, histories, entire worlds start opening up. So it became quickly apparent to us that there is a very active and rich history. And we are active and creative participants in that history. We are literally building the history that someone else will Google search and will open a book and experience, and that was very, very—and still is—an exciting concept to understand, and to throw ourselves into that world to recognize. Being in Boston, which is where Castle of our Skins is based, and where I'm currently based, we also recognize that there is such a connection to Black excellence and artistry in Boston that again, was very dormant, and one that we hadn't recognized because it wasn't one that was adamantly celebrated, and sort of widely celebrated. There were definitely, as we learned, amazing people, amazing organizations: TJ Anderson, who was the Music Director at Tufts University, 95, 96, something like this years old, still living today, very much a mentor to so many composers and performers, very much a glue grandfather figure. And Videmus, which is a music publishing, music recording company, got started in Boston, now headed by Dr. Louise Toppin, performs and highlights the music of women and African diasporic composers. There is a lineage, Dr. Bill Banfield, Dr. Julius Williams, Dr. Jonathan Bailey Holland, here in Boston, affiliated with with Berkeley and Boston Conservatory. So when we started doing that sort of work, networks appeared, histories appeared, throughlines appeared, which gave us sort of an amplifying strength to continue on, sort of a wave for us to sort of surf on and build upon. But still, they were not household names, not common part of conversation, that common part of classrooms. And so we really wanted to change that, we wanted to amplify and make Black excellence, Black history, Black culture, very much part of a norm. So I like to say that we flood collective consciousness with Black excellence. So our programming is active, it's not regulated to any particular time of the year. It's part of classroom conversations, our concerts are quite literally year round. And I know as Artistic Director that it is exhaustive. And we really wanted to make sure that history and those that have come before us and really paved the way for us to do this work are daily, via social media, daily reminders for people so there's no question about Blackness and excellence, classical music, or this Western European art music and Black contributions, that there's no question that those should be part of the same sentence, the same conversation. So in a nutshell, as I've referenced earlier, curiosity is really a big part of what we do. And fostering that curiosity in Black excellence and Black artistry through music and through other parts is what Castle of our Skins is all about.
Carrie Blosser 14:32
I always think it's really striking, you're saying you finished your master's degree, and then started researching. So those names, who you’re saying—
Ashleigh Gordon 14:40
And I started learning, yes.
Carrie Blosser 14:41
Yeah. It’s kind of like the absence of the information was the learning, like, spirit, you know, like, no one had brought up names that you're saying aren't household household names, but you and Castle of our Skins are making household names, which I think is really awesome.
Ashleigh Gordon 14:57
Yes, yes. And I think for us, how this leads back into even the earlier conversation around tokenism, how to do something with authenticity and with intentionality, because we have a genuine interest in wanting to learn and to understand, we are constantly learning and understanding. So for us, there is great care, there's a huge sense of responsibility that's attached with this as well too, since a narrative around Blackness is so complicated. We want to do this and certainly with respect to our elders and our ancestors, we want to do this with great care and intentionality. So much of that is built around perspective, is built around narrative, built around optics, which we understand, and very much want to fill in as complete a picture as possible, especially because so many of the names are literally first impressions. And as we know, first impressions are lasting impressions. Whether or not the music or the person is new, was born in 1501, or is a world premiere that was written yesterday, it still has a care to it that requires a whole and complete narrative. And I definitely think, to go earlier to what we were talking about tokenism, if we understand it, if we treat each story attached to a person that is not interchangeable, so it's not that we can't get the music of William Grant Still so throw Florence Prince into the mix, they are two completely different people that require context, that require a portrait. When we say the name Beethoven, for instance, there's perhaps an association, perhaps imagery, perhaps familiarity of some kind that is associated that comes to mind. But when we say the name of Dawson, or Johnson, or Montague Ring, there may not be that kind of familiarity and context. So to avoid tokenism, which is an extraction, we really do need to situate those names and histories with a person, with a whole complete person and their music, their history, their context, so that there is a familiarity. So to do that with authenticity is to not extract but to really build that kind of context.
Hollyn Slykhuis 17:34
So you already mentioned Composers of African Diaspora class that you taught at Longy, and then also sort of touched on this idea with the culture question that Ashley was talking about earlier, but specifically with that, we had a really interesting discussion in that class about culture and white supremacy and, like, how they interact in America, and how—we had some good analogies for it and things like that, so I would just love for you to talk about that a little bit more.
Ashleigh Gordon 18:09
Yeah, I think one of the analogies that was referenced was the fish in the fishbowl, where a fish, if you tell it that it's swimming in water, it sort of looks at you—well, if a fish can look at you—questioning like, what is water, I don't understand what you mean. And as soon as you take the fish out, there is this sort of shock, right? So if we can liken ourselves to that fish, that we are literally swimming in, again, perspectives, understanding of the world, understanding of time and of religion, that is so pervasive that we don't even realize, that it's so normalized, we don't even realize that we're swimming in it until we leave it—until we travel, until we have it be questioned, right. There's no reason necessarily to question that, especially as it is something that is generationally passed down. Our perspectives of life, of the world, of our understanding, our notions of time, literally our general operating system is one that is passed down and one that is experienced and developed as we continue to grow. So with respect to white supremacy culture, if we understand that this is a conscious and an unconscious perspective, literally worlds and feelings that we adopt, it's to that extent, easier to comprehend how it is so difficult to understand and name white supremacy culture, right? If it is absorbed, if it's generationally passed down, if it's adopted, as well as things that are experienced in real time. So I have empathy around trying to understand—I am not white, right. But I have empathy around those who are white and trying to understand how their culture, how their whiteness, how their ideas, perspectives, etc, have shaped in ways that are harmful, in ways that are negative, I have empathy in trying to understand that with thinking that, again, there's this unconscious aspect, literally one that has been developing for hundreds of years, that is a normative part of life, that is a normative part of their perspective, right. And I, as a Black person, also have empathy with my own understanding, passed down for hundreds of years, right, and trying to think about things that have been absorbed in my own perspective and my own angle and understanding, association and viewpoints. I have perspective as well, too, I have that sense that there are natural things that I do, and that I see and that I recognize that I haven't named before. So I understand in this conversation around the difficulty of putting names to things that have been habitualized, and how difficult it is to even imagine a world where, for instance, capitalism doesn't exist, where hierarchies don't exist, where we don't have a sense of competition, but we have a sense of communal operations, which is not how America works, right? Where we don't have mega tech companies, but we have small, communal-based agricultural systems and technology systems and things like this. It's completely different if we think about a different way of operating. Literally, our general operating system is different if it weren't wrapped in a white supremacy cultural mindset where homogeneous, sort of, thinking and understanding perfectionism and either or thinking, where those aren't centerpieces of our life. Where hybridity, and messiness, and imperfection, and fluidity are natural parts of our existence and recognized as being normalized. So it is literally a different world, different than we have ever experienced, that is now part of our conversation. So I understand the difficulty of trying to wrap one's head around that because it literally is kind of science fiction, right? It's something that we haven't experienced before when we are trying to dismantle a generationally adapted perspective and way of being. Dismantling our political system, dismantling our economic system, those are large conversations. I'm not saying that it's impossible, but I'm saying that I can understand the fear of change, right. I'm reading, speaking of science fiction and change, I'm reading Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler, an African American science fiction writer, and Parable of the Sower is all about change, and there's various sort of proverbs in there, one of which is God as change, and using God in the sense of a belief system, sort of a central spoke to your perspective. So religion for people—not to turn this into a religious podcast or anything—but for religion to be a center in your life, your belief system, and in this case, this metaphor is that change is that belief system. Your anchor for how you operate is to operate in flexibility, in change. That is such a profound statement and a profound belief, where if your sole understanding in life that you can set as a foundation for your movement, is to know that flexibility and adaptability and change is a constant, that I think is amazing, then we wouldn't have, I think, as much resistance as we do.
Carrie Blosser 24:50
I am so jealous that I can't take your class. I just—we would love to know if you have any exciting projects that you're currently working on, or Castle of our Skins, or any groups that you're a part of kind of going through the fall and in the winter that we can promote here on the podcast?
Ashleigh Gordon 25:07
Yeah, no exciting projects. There's nothing coming up. [Laughter]. Yeah, actually we have, we have a lot, which I'm happy to say. We're in with Castle of our Skins, we're in our 9th season, and the 10th one is right around the corner. So I have two seasons worth of things in my head, two years worth of programming. But with season nine, we have a second annual Creative in Residence. We had a really fantastic composer, scholar, Zimbabwean artist and healer for year one. And we have a really amazing poet for year two. So with that poet, we have a number of projects lined up, one of which is a collaboration with a really fantastic quilter to talk about the African American quilting tradition, literally building lives and building things from scraps and building beauty, I should say, from scraps. So combining those two forces together, having a whole entire project centered around their work, and infusing music and infusing arts and perhaps creating a digital LP, and I don't know how that will work. So we'll have to figure that out of their poetry, and a variety of other programs all centered around around their artistry. We also have, as sort of the world opens back up, a little bit of traveling. So coming down to Baltimore in October to do a residency at the University of Baltimore, traveling to New York City for our first New York City kind of debut, still in the works, but hopefully involved in the Schomburg Center, the Schomburg Research Center for all focused around African and African diasporic music and culture and history. And also not 100% confirmed but very much in the pipeline: a trip to England, to Oxford, with Florence Price scholar Dr. Samantha Ege to do residencies performing and our first ever recording project. And then in Boston, so there's sort of some of the usual things that we do which involve educational programming, teaming up with a company here in town to do some long term—I can't say too much about it, because we haven't announced it yet, so—some long term, multi-year kind of educational work around operas, I guess I can say that much. And then, with our sort of usual partners in town, again doing performative work, we have a world premiere that was written for us by Daniel Bernard Roumain, with the celebrity series of Boston. Bringing in ... flutist and composer, to do a whole project around the concept of homeland at the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum, and other projects related with Longy as well too, where we're Ensemble in Residence, so bringing in South African composer, Dr. Bongani Ndodana-Breen to do a masterclass, concerts, etc, around his music, his works. And yeah, sort of no shortage, I guess, of our usuals doing educational work, doing performative work in a collaborative way. I can also share at this point that me, myself, and I am Artist in Residence at the Brattleboro Music Center up in Vermont, and that is sort of a Castle of our Skins 2.0. But in Brattleboro where I will be doing a bunch of educational work and also programmatic work, we're still sort of working out on the details, but similarly doing lectures around African diasporic composers, educational workshops, side-by-side performances with youth around African American folk songs, around quilting traditions, around learning of composers that are near and dear to my heart and cultures that are near and dear to my heart and performances galore, so that is also in the works, a little bit of traveling for me personally to Vermont, which is a very beautiful drive from Boston for this year and potentially the year following.
Carrie Blosser 25:13
We have our very last question for you. What is on your music stand this week, and how are you diversifying your stand?
Ashleigh Gordon 29:58
Yeah, well, my music stand is usually filled with chamber music from African diasporic composers. So that's kind of a norm. So if I were to diversify my music stands and not have chamber works by African diasporic composers, this this week, I actually am playing with a new music chamber ensemble called Alarm Will Sound. And I have on my music stand a piece by Eartheater, a composer who is new to me, and Marcos Balter, and oh my goodness, who else is on my music stand? All things sort of related to that project. And I need to do much more research around that project, around who all these people are. And what is the theme behind it. I am doing a project, composer Julius Williams, who is an African diasporic composer, for the Boston Children's Chorus in commemoration to the 54th Shaw Memorial, which is one of the the largest and historic memorials for the 54th Regiment, which is an all-Black regiment that fought in the Civil War. And so that is also on my music stand. As I had wanted, but didn't necessarily get a chance to do because I thought I would have more time this summer to learn some music, really did want to learn some viola solos since I do so much in chamber music settings, and other sort of ensemble settings, and sort of beef up my viola repertoire. So it's on my music stand, but I haven't opened it, and wanted to learn some solos by some composers that I really appreciate, and some composers that are new for me. So Carlos Simon, I wanted to learn some solo works for viola, and John McLaughlin Williams, I wanted to learn—John McLoughlin Williams is a Grammy Award-winning conductor and violinist and wrote some solos that Eliesha Nelson, who's the only Black musician of the Cleveland Orchestra, or if not the only at this point, the first in the viola section. And TJ Anderson I referenced, Coldridge-Taylor Perkinson, also having a really great repertoire to be able to engage with. In any case, those are on my music stand that I haven't quite opened up yet, found the time to open up. But hope to be able to in the upcoming weeks.
Carrie Blosser 32:51
Well, thank you again so much for joining us.
Ashleigh Gordon 32:53
Yeah, thanks again for having me. This was a great conversation.
Ashley Killam 32:58
To learn more about Ashley, Castle of our Skins, and the groups and resources that she recommended, check out our website and in the podcast description. Thank you for listening to Diversify the Stand. I'm Ashley.
Carrie Blosser 33:10
And I'm Carrie. If you'd like to support us and our projects, find us on social media and visit our website. We now have a store where you can pick up some Diversify the Stand gear.
Ashley Killam 33:19
And as always, a huge thank you to Trevor Weston and Whitney George for allowing us to use their compositions in our podcast. The musical introduction is Trevor's trumpet duet Fanfare for Changes, and the ending music is Whitney's Incantations for trumpet and piano. Both composers’ websites are listed in the podcast description.
Carrie Blosser 33:38
Until next week, what's on your stand?